It feels like a lot of contemporary culture explicitly condones rude and selfish behavior. It's okay to cancel plans last minute because "muh social anxiety." It's Karen-ish to ask people to refrain from any anti-social behavior in public. A lot of people choose to cut off talking to their parents because they're supposedly narcissists or whatever. It seems like a trend. It's something I've been chewing on a lot lately.
Some of Josh's most delightful writing is driven by the fact that he seems to be almost completely drama-free in his own life, while many of those he excoriates (and almost all the NY Mag writers in today's piece deserve to be excoriated) are the complete opposite.
When I saw the title, I assumed this would be a very silly and unrelatable list. I was vindicated when item number 1 was "You don't have to read everyone's book." As a normie non-NYC-journalist, I'm confident in saying most people don't know anyone who just published a book. Or an article. Or a song. Most people have normal jobs that do not result in publicly available outputs if any sort, and I'm confident that no one I interact with on a daily basis is even slightly concerned about falling behind on their friends' published works.
Putting this as item number 1 was a harbinger of how tiresome the whole list was.
I want to join the chorus requesting an etiquette column or podcast from you, Josh! I agree completely that the purpose of etiquette is to make other people, not ourselves, feel more comfortable.
For that reason, I did want to push back on one thing. You disagreed with the NYMag’s rule that we shouldn’t ask about people’s jobs because it’s “classist.” I agree with you that the “classist” accusation is a bit much, but I do think there are better ways to start off a conversation. In Europe, where I live, it is considered rude to ask about a person’s job when you first meet them, and I wish that was the norm in the US too.
I have been a SAHM and housewife for almost 23 years, and when new people ask me what I do and I tell them, more often than not their eyes glaze over and they look for a more interesting person to talk with, or--possibly worse--they rush to tell me, “That’s ok too!” (Note: I never said I thought being a housewife wasn’t ok.) My point is that unless you have an interesting and/or impressive job, the “What do you do?” question can close off conversation and lead people to make assumptions about each other.
I have a friend who, when meeting a new person, always asks, “What are you reading that is interesting?” Because I live in an international community, a lot of people I know start conversations by asking, “What’s something about where you’re from that most people might not know?” These questions open up more possibilities, and without the implied judgment of “What do you do?” in my opinion.
Seriously (pun intended), why do so many people have an issue with the word "partner"? @Josh I'm going to call you out since you just tweeted about it yesterday. There are many reasons a person of any sexual orientation might be in a long-term, non-married relationship, and I'm not talking about "performative reasons" like "resisting the patriarchy". Serious mental illness, large amounts of debt, etc. I hope you don't have to deal with these, but many of us do. These things don't mean you don't deeply and sincerely love someone. As someone past my early thirties, terms like "boyfriend/girlfriend" seem childish and don't capture the significance of the relationshp. "Significant other" is clunky and doesn't flow in conversation. If "partner" doesn't do it for you, can you suggest an alternative? Is your true criticism that you just think everyone should get married?
I honestly think this etiquette list should be seen for what it is; New York Magazine's attempt to ape Buzzfeed's style while seeming more highbrow. I'm honestly not sure this list was supposed to be taken seriously other than to get the engagement you were giving it.
I mean some of these I think are designed to make you eye roll a little. "Here’s a good way to handle yourself when being introduced to a famous person." Like how often is this a normal occurrence even for people who live in and around New York City? This one was almost designed to be a Fox News segment and for once I might actually agree with the Fox News host.
I will say, I have genuine questions regarding the tipping etiquette. Tip 20% to baristas and tip 10% for take-out? Wow is this really a thing? I leave dollars in the tip jar at the local coffee shop, but I've given like 5% before on take out. And honestly I thought I was being generous figuring most people didn't tip at all for take-out. I mean isn't that the point of take-out? To save money on tipping? If I'm supposed to tip 10% then might as well just do delivery.
It is classist to ask people what their job is but OK to ask what their rent is?? (Also it is tacky to say straight women should own lube, that's up to them!)
(edit - or a gay woman, women in general are free to opt out of activities that require lube and unless I'm seriously misinformed they mostly do)
Just took a look at those "rules"...oof. It's basically catnip to right-wingers. I mean..."resisting the patriarchy" by not getting married? Who the hell cares?? The virtue signaling was overwhelming.
And that NY Mag article links to related story once again telling us how we're now supposed to tip for literally everything. I cannot STAND being told I'm obligated to tip when ordering food at a counter and picking it up there. My wife has actually had counter staff ask "You're not tipping us anything?" Uh, no. I'm ordering food here and picking it up here. Nobody's doing anything that would justify a tip, so I'm not paying one.
So I clicked on the link after reading Josh's delightful takedown. And.... actually, it seemed like the New York "list" was almost entirely tongue-in-cheek?
Like, generally speaking when the advice sounded like it was coming from a moron or a sociopath, I felt reasonably sure that that was indeed supposed to be the joke. And the frequency of those moments was much higher than I'd expect if the intent was for anybody to take seriously the list as a whole.
That's not to say I personally found it funny. Insofar as it's meant as gentle, laughing-with-not-at satire of the foibles of a certain class of people, it's a class I mostly don't interact with and, to the extent I do, mostly don't like. So I don't actually "get" what any of the humor in the piece was supposed to be about. But did at least seem to me that it was meant to be broadly comic, not an attempt at serious writing about etiquette in the vein of Miss Manners or Letitia Baldridge.
It feels like a lot of contemporary culture explicitly condones rude and selfish behavior. It's okay to cancel plans last minute because "muh social anxiety." It's Karen-ish to ask people to refrain from any anti-social behavior in public. A lot of people choose to cut off talking to their parents because they're supposedly narcissists or whatever. It seems like a trend. It's something I've been chewing on a lot lately.
We're due for your "Dear Josh" etiquette podcast.
> “The ways we socialize and date, commute and work are nearly unrecognizable from what they were three years ago,”
As the kids say,
lol
lmao
Signed,
Has Been In The Office Full Time Like Normal Since June--of 2020
Some of Josh's most delightful writing is driven by the fact that he seems to be almost completely drama-free in his own life, while many of those he excoriates (and almost all the NY Mag writers in today's piece deserve to be excoriated) are the complete opposite.
When I saw the title, I assumed this would be a very silly and unrelatable list. I was vindicated when item number 1 was "You don't have to read everyone's book." As a normie non-NYC-journalist, I'm confident in saying most people don't know anyone who just published a book. Or an article. Or a song. Most people have normal jobs that do not result in publicly available outputs if any sort, and I'm confident that no one I interact with on a daily basis is even slightly concerned about falling behind on their friends' published works.
Putting this as item number 1 was a harbinger of how tiresome the whole list was.
I want to join the chorus requesting an etiquette column or podcast from you, Josh! I agree completely that the purpose of etiquette is to make other people, not ourselves, feel more comfortable.
For that reason, I did want to push back on one thing. You disagreed with the NYMag’s rule that we shouldn’t ask about people’s jobs because it’s “classist.” I agree with you that the “classist” accusation is a bit much, but I do think there are better ways to start off a conversation. In Europe, where I live, it is considered rude to ask about a person’s job when you first meet them, and I wish that was the norm in the US too.
I have been a SAHM and housewife for almost 23 years, and when new people ask me what I do and I tell them, more often than not their eyes glaze over and they look for a more interesting person to talk with, or--possibly worse--they rush to tell me, “That’s ok too!” (Note: I never said I thought being a housewife wasn’t ok.) My point is that unless you have an interesting and/or impressive job, the “What do you do?” question can close off conversation and lead people to make assumptions about each other.
I have a friend who, when meeting a new person, always asks, “What are you reading that is interesting?” Because I live in an international community, a lot of people I know start conversations by asking, “What’s something about where you’re from that most people might not know?” These questions open up more possibilities, and without the implied judgment of “What do you do?” in my opinion.
“that’s how you end up writing an etiquette list for assholes.”
This sentence is a work of art.
Seriously (pun intended), why do so many people have an issue with the word "partner"? @Josh I'm going to call you out since you just tweeted about it yesterday. There are many reasons a person of any sexual orientation might be in a long-term, non-married relationship, and I'm not talking about "performative reasons" like "resisting the patriarchy". Serious mental illness, large amounts of debt, etc. I hope you don't have to deal with these, but many of us do. These things don't mean you don't deeply and sincerely love someone. As someone past my early thirties, terms like "boyfriend/girlfriend" seem childish and don't capture the significance of the relationshp. "Significant other" is clunky and doesn't flow in conversation. If "partner" doesn't do it for you, can you suggest an alternative? Is your true criticism that you just think everyone should get married?
The “if you’re ugly” one is straight out of an It’s Always Sunny In Philadelphia bit (S13E4 for IASIP noobs)
I honestly think this etiquette list should be seen for what it is; New York Magazine's attempt to ape Buzzfeed's style while seeming more highbrow. I'm honestly not sure this list was supposed to be taken seriously other than to get the engagement you were giving it.
I mean some of these I think are designed to make you eye roll a little. "Here’s a good way to handle yourself when being introduced to a famous person." Like how often is this a normal occurrence even for people who live in and around New York City? This one was almost designed to be a Fox News segment and for once I might actually agree with the Fox News host.
I will say, I have genuine questions regarding the tipping etiquette. Tip 20% to baristas and tip 10% for take-out? Wow is this really a thing? I leave dollars in the tip jar at the local coffee shop, but I've given like 5% before on take out. And honestly I thought I was being generous figuring most people didn't tip at all for take-out. I mean isn't that the point of take-out? To save money on tipping? If I'm supposed to tip 10% then might as well just do delivery.
It is classist to ask people what their job is but OK to ask what their rent is?? (Also it is tacky to say straight women should own lube, that's up to them!)
(edit - or a gay woman, women in general are free to opt out of activities that require lube and unless I'm seriously misinformed they mostly do)
In addition to Lauren Santo Domingo's comments, also found Amy Sedaris' contribution to the article to be pretty good.
I've never met you, Josh. But I'm sure you have nice complimentable pants.
Just took a look at those "rules"...oof. It's basically catnip to right-wingers. I mean..."resisting the patriarchy" by not getting married? Who the hell cares?? The virtue signaling was overwhelming.
And that NY Mag article links to related story once again telling us how we're now supposed to tip for literally everything. I cannot STAND being told I'm obligated to tip when ordering food at a counter and picking it up there. My wife has actually had counter staff ask "You're not tipping us anything?" Uh, no. I'm ordering food here and picking it up here. Nobody's doing anything that would justify a tip, so I'm not paying one.
So I clicked on the link after reading Josh's delightful takedown. And.... actually, it seemed like the New York "list" was almost entirely tongue-in-cheek?
Like, generally speaking when the advice sounded like it was coming from a moron or a sociopath, I felt reasonably sure that that was indeed supposed to be the joke. And the frequency of those moments was much higher than I'd expect if the intent was for anybody to take seriously the list as a whole.
That's not to say I personally found it funny. Insofar as it's meant as gentle, laughing-with-not-at satire of the foibles of a certain class of people, it's a class I mostly don't interact with and, to the extent I do, mostly don't like. So I don't actually "get" what any of the humor in the piece was supposed to be about. But did at least seem to me that it was meant to be broadly comic, not an attempt at serious writing about etiquette in the vein of Miss Manners or Letitia Baldridge.