I'm agnostic on the question of whether democracy is truly imperiled at the moment, but I've read that the way to beat back authoritarian movements is to very much treat them like you would any political movement -- hit them where they're weak while campaigning on what makes you popular, instead of investing them with the dark glamour of being a World-Historical Evil (which somehow attracts people who are desperate to feel strong).
I.e., whether or not politics is "normal," you have to keep calm and act like it is.
Which is very much an argument against doing any favors for "normal" Republicans.
I think this is basically right. However, if Democrats are willing to roll the dice on getting Trumpists elected I don't think they also get to act like Trump is an existential threat to the Republic.
Well said Josh. Prior to the 2016 election, I think establishment republicans thought they'd pay an electoral price for Trump. Instead, they were surprised to benefit from him electorally and to add to their advantages in the courts. It's possible that the bill is coming due a little later than expected, but now they can't influence the party enough to pick more electable candidates, and the Trump faction claims they're the only one who knows how to win. The consequences may be that they're stuck with the baggage of Trump stupidity without the benefits of upset wins. Hopefully Democrats can show they deserve power and press their advantage over a few election cycles. May be wishful thinking but we'll see.
I fully agree with this. I think the problem the establishment republicans are running into NOW is that they have already had multiple off-ramps to depart the Trump Train, and have consistently refused to take them.
Set aside everything Trump did as president. If they really wanted to get Trump gone they should have gone through with the impeachment hearing, whether or not the specific articles the democrats wrote made any sense (impeachment is political anyway). Missing that, they could have put full force behind the January 6th commission, instead of leaving Cheney stranded. They could be supporting a different 2024 candidate than DeSantis, who (despite being a far superior candidate) is 100% supportive of Trump.
The problem is they were never willing to sacrifice anything to get rid of Trump. Yeah it would have been painful to abolish the guy from the party, but it was doable. They just weren’t willing to put anything on the line to make it happen.
Conservatives are correct to point out Democrats' hypocrisy, and it's wrong for Dems to roll the dice supporting many of these wacky Trump-endorsed candidates. It's stupid and dangerous. However, conservatives pouncing on Garland is absurd, and if this means Ron doesn't get the 2024 nomination, tough. Republicans are going to have to deal with the Trump problem until it is officially over, and that might last one more election cycle.
I don't think the "ask" is "help our party get rid of the monster we've created; the ask is "don't prop up candidates you claim are a threat to democracy."
Democrats are of course free to decline this request; the rest of us are then free to draw conclusions about how deep their commitment to democracy is.
Yep is all I can say to this - republicans get your right wing under control or I vote democrat - the democrats are putting their whack jobs to flight as far as I can tell living here in CA better than you are at this point
You're definitely not wrong here. To be fair to National Review, they have generally always opposed Trump, but it's very fair to point out their clear lack of influence.
I do wish Trump would be gone forever, but Republicans can't seem to stop him. They could, but it would require political sacrifice that most are unwilling to take.
Also, DeSantis is awful - all of Trump’s awful personal qualities, but smarter. And if you think that his policies are bad, “more intelligently implementing terrible policy and punishing enemies” is not actually a point in his favor!
In a 2-person vote between DeSantis and Trump, I’m taking Trump because at least his selfish and arbitrary style might occasionally lead him to do something correct out of self interest or by random chance.
I think Republicans will eventually get past Trump. I don’t think Democrats will ever get past having more sympathy for drug addicts and criminals than tax paying families. Anyone who lives in a blue urban core can attest to that. I’ve been assaulted 2x outside my apartment in the past 3 months. I’ve seen homeless having drug induced breakdowns hurl profanities at a family taking their toddler to the local playground. The authorities do absolutely nothing.
I agree that Republicans are horrifically corrupt, but I can’t morally justify backing a pro-crime political party.
I think this is largely correct except a part of Democrats' message to some of the Biden voting Republican and Independents is about the horribleness of January 6th and Republicans abandoning all concerns with the fundamental precondition of democracy. I don't know if Democrats are served well by propping up some of these ass clowns (at least the absurd ones like John Gibbs and Mastriano who genuinely seem like they want to overturn democracy and, at least in the case of Mastriano, would have considerable power to do so should they win)
I mean, you're not wrong about whose fault this problem is, but I still can't help but be totally annoyed that DCCC dollars were going toward getting rid of one of the very few House Republicans who voted to impeach. Holding that vote in particular against Meijer is just obnoxious, even if strategically understandable. I think the DCCC could stand to be a little less shortsighted and not maximally ratfucker-y in those few races, particularly when the GOP electorate is more than capable of choosing bad candidates without your help anyways.
The rejoinder to this, though, is that if Democrats are right that the timeline we're living in is one where Trump's return to power would mean the annihilation of the republic, future historians reading this post might write something like:
"Could Trump's second putsch have been stopped? Almost certainly yes. It was well understood on both sides in 2022 how to deliver the kill-shot to the cult of Trump once and for all. The Democrats needed simply to ignore Trump, enabling a new set of GOP leaders to plow past him without open repudiation and paving the way for a likely non-Trump Republican win in 2024. Yet at the critical moment the Democrats engaged instead in petty scorekeeping, insisting that 'normie' Republicans had made the mess to begin with and it wasn't Democrats' 'job' to clean it up.
"Evidently, saving democracy wasn't quite so compelling an end as to be worth a DeSantis presidency. The Democrats in 1876 were willing to make that strategic calculus when it was ending Reconstruction that was at stake. Their successors in 2022 were too consumed with punishing Republican misdeeds to accept the same trade when it came to ending the reign of Donald J. Trump."
This is excellent.
I'm agnostic on the question of whether democracy is truly imperiled at the moment, but I've read that the way to beat back authoritarian movements is to very much treat them like you would any political movement -- hit them where they're weak while campaigning on what makes you popular, instead of investing them with the dark glamour of being a World-Historical Evil (which somehow attracts people who are desperate to feel strong).
I.e., whether or not politics is "normal," you have to keep calm and act like it is.
Which is very much an argument against doing any favors for "normal" Republicans.
That was a deliciously cathartic read. Thank you
I think this is basically right. However, if Democrats are willing to roll the dice on getting Trumpists elected I don't think they also get to act like Trump is an existential threat to the Republic.
Well said Josh. Prior to the 2016 election, I think establishment republicans thought they'd pay an electoral price for Trump. Instead, they were surprised to benefit from him electorally and to add to their advantages in the courts. It's possible that the bill is coming due a little later than expected, but now they can't influence the party enough to pick more electable candidates, and the Trump faction claims they're the only one who knows how to win. The consequences may be that they're stuck with the baggage of Trump stupidity without the benefits of upset wins. Hopefully Democrats can show they deserve power and press their advantage over a few election cycles. May be wishful thinking but we'll see.
Is my party so out of touch?
No, it's the Democrats who are wrong
I fully agree with this. I think the problem the establishment republicans are running into NOW is that they have already had multiple off-ramps to depart the Trump Train, and have consistently refused to take them.
Set aside everything Trump did as president. If they really wanted to get Trump gone they should have gone through with the impeachment hearing, whether or not the specific articles the democrats wrote made any sense (impeachment is political anyway). Missing that, they could have put full force behind the January 6th commission, instead of leaving Cheney stranded. They could be supporting a different 2024 candidate than DeSantis, who (despite being a far superior candidate) is 100% supportive of Trump.
The problem is they were never willing to sacrifice anything to get rid of Trump. Yeah it would have been painful to abolish the guy from the party, but it was doable. They just weren’t willing to put anything on the line to make it happen.
Conservatives are correct to point out Democrats' hypocrisy, and it's wrong for Dems to roll the dice supporting many of these wacky Trump-endorsed candidates. It's stupid and dangerous. However, conservatives pouncing on Garland is absurd, and if this means Ron doesn't get the 2024 nomination, tough. Republicans are going to have to deal with the Trump problem until it is officially over, and that might last one more election cycle.
I don't think the "ask" is "help our party get rid of the monster we've created; the ask is "don't prop up candidates you claim are a threat to democracy."
Democrats are of course free to decline this request; the rest of us are then free to draw conclusions about how deep their commitment to democracy is.
Yep is all I can say to this - republicans get your right wing under control or I vote democrat - the democrats are putting their whack jobs to flight as far as I can tell living here in CA better than you are at this point
You're definitely not wrong here. To be fair to National Review, they have generally always opposed Trump, but it's very fair to point out their clear lack of influence.
I do wish Trump would be gone forever, but Republicans can't seem to stop him. They could, but it would require political sacrifice that most are unwilling to take.
The GOP’s take on this just seems like another version of the extremely stupid, “you should have elected Mitt Romney to prevent Trump” from 2016-7
Also, DeSantis is awful - all of Trump’s awful personal qualities, but smarter. And if you think that his policies are bad, “more intelligently implementing terrible policy and punishing enemies” is not actually a point in his favor!
In a 2-person vote between DeSantis and Trump, I’m taking Trump because at least his selfish and arbitrary style might occasionally lead him to do something correct out of self interest or by random chance.
I think Republicans will eventually get past Trump. I don’t think Democrats will ever get past having more sympathy for drug addicts and criminals than tax paying families. Anyone who lives in a blue urban core can attest to that. I’ve been assaulted 2x outside my apartment in the past 3 months. I’ve seen homeless having drug induced breakdowns hurl profanities at a family taking their toddler to the local playground. The authorities do absolutely nothing.
I agree that Republicans are horrifically corrupt, but I can’t morally justify backing a pro-crime political party.
I think this is largely correct except a part of Democrats' message to some of the Biden voting Republican and Independents is about the horribleness of January 6th and Republicans abandoning all concerns with the fundamental precondition of democracy. I don't know if Democrats are served well by propping up some of these ass clowns (at least the absurd ones like John Gibbs and Mastriano who genuinely seem like they want to overturn democracy and, at least in the case of Mastriano, would have considerable power to do so should they win)
I mean, you're not wrong about whose fault this problem is, but I still can't help but be totally annoyed that DCCC dollars were going toward getting rid of one of the very few House Republicans who voted to impeach. Holding that vote in particular against Meijer is just obnoxious, even if strategically understandable. I think the DCCC could stand to be a little less shortsighted and not maximally ratfucker-y in those few races, particularly when the GOP electorate is more than capable of choosing bad candidates without your help anyways.
The rejoinder to this, though, is that if Democrats are right that the timeline we're living in is one where Trump's return to power would mean the annihilation of the republic, future historians reading this post might write something like:
"Could Trump's second putsch have been stopped? Almost certainly yes. It was well understood on both sides in 2022 how to deliver the kill-shot to the cult of Trump once and for all. The Democrats needed simply to ignore Trump, enabling a new set of GOP leaders to plow past him without open repudiation and paving the way for a likely non-Trump Republican win in 2024. Yet at the critical moment the Democrats engaged instead in petty scorekeeping, insisting that 'normie' Republicans had made the mess to begin with and it wasn't Democrats' 'job' to clean it up.
"Evidently, saving democracy wasn't quite so compelling an end as to be worth a DeSantis presidency. The Democrats in 1876 were willing to make that strategic calculus when it was ending Reconstruction that was at stake. Their successors in 2022 were too consumed with punishing Republican misdeeds to accept the same trade when it came to ending the reign of Donald J. Trump."